trees do notgo to the sky. it has t cool down. >> don't go to the sky. got you. all right. cost of freedom. the place business. ♪ ♪ > so we stil don't know the official enrollment numbers for obamacare. the white house won't release those until next week. but what we do know is most the pele signing up for older. not the younger healthy ones who are needed to keep the new bureaucracy afloat. does that mean big premium strikes are coming for all let's go in focus with steve foes, rich karlgaard, morgan brennan, john tandy,. arthey coming? >> young people think they're immortal. they won't sign up unless they need it or have mental health problems.

of course they are going up. if they don't go up you are getting less or going to a different network. >> rk, it's expensive to sign up. >> this is premature, don't you ink? we know younger people tend t do things at the last minute. i don't know what laughed but that is a silly thing to laugh at. it's nothing new. we know about the younger people. let's wait and see, let's wait and see -- stunning. if wre laughing at logic, why are we bothering to have a conversation. you must not have had kids. more importantly, i want to talk about the reassurance pool that people don't know is there. we have a reassurance pool so if numbers don't work out this year there is something to fall back on, so we'll keep any increases for the next three years down. >> mike, we are laughing because yes, we know young people, and you can cry or laugh. you have your choice. i choose tolaugh but the fact is insurance is a produc people who d't directly nefifrom it won't buy it.

that is the young people. that's why they are not interested in buying. >> that would be the natural coumer response. but i also think another possibility is they have increased the penalty fo not buying it. in other words, they raised the amount they will punish peopleho don't go in and buy the lousy obama snake oil. what could happen is they make not get enrollment rit away. but rick cld be right. the enrollment could go up because the punishment for not enroll willing go up. >> morgan, just to be clear about this. this first year is the penalty 1% of your income. so if you make $30,000 a year, $300. that goes up to 2.5 of your income in 2016. >> yeah. i think as long as you have 1% of income right now or $95 to opt out you will see some young adults choose that right now. that being said, going back to rick's point, i happen to agree. if you look at when massachusetts rolled out the healthcare in 2007the supposed data shows a lot of young adults came in at the last minute. we have a shoddy website.

young adultsre not going there. they are waiting. another point to be made. we saw the jo report this week. we have young adults looking r jobs. they're holding out that option as well. >> rich, there is another thing that young people are waiting for. having kids, i know how they work, rick. rich, kids often will wait until they are forced to, until they are coerced to. and so far, they're waiting to see how much they can get ay with, right? >> well, yeah. there's that. there is also the fact that the cultural icons, jon stewart are ochingly laughing at the program -- openingly laughing at the program. so you have technology that doesn't work. this is a tech-savvy group of people. comedians on right and the left laughing at the program. and now you have number three, that obama bro his promises, id in 2009 and 2010. , you know, you have lack of trust going on here among young people. i will create actuarial death

spiral. >> john, this is basic economics, isn't it? like when the president told us none of this would cost a dime. you insure more people it will cost money, right? >> the obama administration, by extension rick's vandalism of basic economics would be funny if it weren't going to have so many victims. simple truth, there is no insurance without healthy people. but th obama exchanges give young every incentive to opt out and the highest risk, every incentive to opt in. premiu will rise based on what fails simple economics. >> steve, after the broken promises, so far, again, it's only beginning to roll out. but we have already seen so many broken promises. you won't be able to keep the health program you like. you won't see the premiumoes up. they have gone up. >> that is right. you are going to get more disaster after the elections next year when the businesses have to sign on to this thing. there have been estimates that half the business people are signed on, on businesses are

going to lose. they are estimating 93 million people will not have their insurance. they are goingng outraged. that is why this thing wil collapse, among other reasons. >> but rick, you already have these things that have happened that weren't supposed toappen, right? >> yeah. thgs that have happened in the first 30 days. look, we seem to be fact challenged this morning. jon stewart has never -- let me underline "never" -- mad fun of the program. he made fun ofhe execution of the program, something none of us are pleased with. >> rick, hold on aecond. how much longer can you divide the execution of a program from the progm itself? eventually they are the same thing. >> eventually they are. but if you think any rational person thinks that 30 days is enough to judge it, i don't know what you consider a rational person. >> perhaps, rich, jon stewart is not rational. he is notust laughing at the implementation of it. >> yes, he is. >> he is laughing of the

fundamental basics of it. >> no, he's not. >> that young people will wa to run out and buy something they didn't have to watch before. >> i don't know if you watch m, i watch every night. no, he is not laughing at that. >> at any ratewhoever is laughing at whatever, the fact is, rich, thathe program just doe't seem to be working. it's not just the rolling out of one part of it. i seems be the whole thing. >> yeah. but i would like to point out that rick is among those who believes that obama didn't break his promise here either. >> no, i'm not. noi'm not. >> you have tremendous problems here. look at theirginia governors race to go to steve' point of the political consequences of this unlaughing. terry mcauliffe in the governor's race in virgini d a 12 to 15-point lead two weeks before the election. then it became widely known that obama misspe or however you want to characterize the broken promises. and the republicanlose the gap to within two points and in another week would have won the race. that's how toxic this plan is.

>> go ahead, rick. >> can i jump in? friday night on the sean hannity town hall and again on nday night on the sean hannity show i specifically said that obama did break his promise. and i'm really getting a bit tired this morning ofeople playing so fast d loos with the facts. >> okay. we have to leave it at that. coming up, remember this. >> all the shutdown is doing is making it harder for ordinary americans to get by. and harder for businesses to create jobs. >> shut down will hurt our economy, threaten jobs throughout job creion. >> the shut down has an effect on g.d.p. which in turn hassen effectn hiring. well, did this number just smack down those warnings? this is the quicksilver cash back card from capil one.

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get an ao insurance quote. saa. we know what it means to serve. ♪ ♪ well, stunning jobs report on friday. stunning because the administration and its friends in mainstream media were gurding us to expect a terrible jobs report because of the partial government shutdown. well, it wasn't terrible. in ft, the 2004 new jobs created were twices many as what some economists were expecting. john, you says this proves we can survive fine without big government, right? >> of course. anytime the government sector slinks that means the private sector grows. when you look at how companies are formed, they are formed based on investments.

so if government consuming less capital, that means there is more capital in the prate sector. company form and bs created. this would be good for an economy. we should have kept the government shut down longer. >> rich, this reminds you, rich karlgaard, offed what with the sequester. the administration, a the friendin the media said it will be terrible, your life won't be the same. we did it. it hasn't been too bad, has it? >> well, america is the land of enterise and of inedibly productive enterprisers. it shows you that even bad policy coming out of washington really can't kill that spirit. and by bad policy, you know, we have the administration, we have congress, the senate, the run-away federal bureaucracy, unstable money. a lot of ad winds that hit america. we should be growing at 4%. >> rick, even the head of bureau of labor statistics the institution that comes out with the figures said really there was no discernible

impact from the partial government shutdown and the jobs numbers. >> yeah. that is apparently true, although i have to say this the argument that this somehow boosted employment is interesting. because what you're saying is everybody got together -- >> no, no, no, no. hold on, hold on. don't misquote it. we're not saying it boosted up employment we're saying it didn't have as detrimental effect on employment. the economy is rolling along especially with a smaller government. >> 17 days we're unfortunate we lost $25 billion in economic action $ blion of government -- i don't understand why that is funny. what is the point you're making? got shutdown and people p employment figures for the next month this is relevant? >> the point -- >> wait, wait, wait. rick. you ask question. give us a chance to answer. rick, the point is, mike, we had g.d. figures this week that were up a little bit.

despite the sequester and the shutdown. it looks like the economy can work without the big government. >> you are right. we're taking a page from bill clinton play book who shrunk it before the overall economy. before the shutdown the expectcation was that the economy would grow by 1.8% in the thd quarter. now they are saying 2.8% growth. we saw the same thing in the sequester, expecting the growth of 2.5% in the quarter. excuse me, 1.2%. camen at 2.5%. why? faster growth in private sector. that is exactly what happened when bill clinton was president. >> i listened to n.p.r. most of the moment and they talk about the dire consequences of the government shutdown, they expect a terrible jobs report and the government shutdown. it didn't happen. >> what mike is referring to, i went and did a web search. thousands of news stories said the governnt shutdown would hurt the u.s. economy and it

would shave nearly percentage point off of the g.d.p. growth. it didn't. i did not do that. g.d.p. growth is up at 2.8%. rich is right, weeed to grow to 3.5 to 4%. i'm thinking we are in the united states of amnesia right now. why are we so dependent on what the government does in we have been through decades before of crisis. where the u.s. economy has come out of it. because the sector has stepped up to the plate. 212,000 jobs created by private sector this past report. >> maybe we should have kept the shutdown the longer? >> the less government more chance you have for private sector to grow. we shouldn't break out the sham pape too quickly, because the government shutdown disskew the survey. you have more companies reported on the establishment survey. that might have skewed the number. the household survey was not good. i think we wait a month to see how strong the job market is. >> this is not to say that the

economy is doing swimmingly. if it was, we'd be growing aboutver 3%. right? >> it's got to be remembered, governmentas no resources. when rick talks about $25 billion loss, that was initially taken from us. would you rather john boehner and nancy pelosi allocate capital or have the capitalists capital -- capitalists allocate capital? any time we shrinkovernment recapital is deployed to make us prosperous. >> rick, go ahead. >> when i tried to raise the question before, if you are saying that the shutdown resulted in more employment you said i was going off-point.t. david you just said maybe we should keep the government shutdown more often. >> that was not the question. >> we have to go to joe biden spending the obama stimulus where he said more government spending, more government borrowing.

that's the way out of the recession. he said any month we'll be having 250,000 jobs an average a month. that never happened. >> you know what joe biden's twitter hashtag reads? #mythoughtsarefacts. because my thoughts are facts. what i think is not a fact. it's not. >> so if your cntctor botched a job at your house do you hire them for more jobs? the government just did with the company behind the glitch ridden healthcare website. that's at the bottom of the hour. but first up, right here, can't pass new tax hikes? pass new user fees. this is a new d.c. code word that will have you yelling "code blue." coming next.

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♪ ♪ remember when senate majority leader harry reid said this? >> the only people who feel there shouldn't be more coming in to the federal government from the rich people a the republicans and the congress. everybody else including rich people are willing toay more. they want to pay more. >> i don't know if i want to pay more, but lk out because new reports that taxpayers will be paying more. and lawmakers found a creative way to get you to pay more. they are called "er fees." higher fees for airport security. but emac, you say no matter what you call it, it's a tax. >> this reminds me. i'm going to do a twist on what president bill clinton said once.

it depends what the word "fee" is. the word "fee" is really a tax. what we see, the user fees you cited more states over the last five years are becoming addicted to the fiscal sugar. $100 billion in "fees" which are really taxes in the last five years alone, david. >> so it's a tax, morgan, no? >> i'm going to say no. because a tax by definition is involptary fees. these are not involuntary. at least on the individual level. you are talking about user fees tied to park admission and increase airport security. if you don't want to pay those fees you can opt out of taking advantagof those services. >> salesaxes are also voluntary as well. you don't have to buy the item. >> what about that? are they a tax or not, the new fees >> sadly they become taxes. fee for legitimate service, fine. we saw the gal fund, they raided that. airport tas supposed to go for the airtraffic control. instead rated for other things. in this case it's sadly a tax. not a fee for a service.

>> rick, even in president obama's budget he is calling for300 billion in the new fees. >> think bh morgan and steve have it right. this is a user tax. it's not unfair to tax people for using something for somebody else doesn't use. why should i pay for a road i'm not dving on. but steve is right, tre are incidents where the fund is raided for other do user taxes but keep it segregated for the legitimate purpose. >> i want to get back to what harry reid said. he said everybody wants to pay more. do you want to pay more for a wasteful, dysfunctional government? >> i'm not a 1%er like rick -- >> you are never going to be either. >> good for you, rick. >> if we paid substantially reduced rates but user fees woulmake sense. but the problem now is we are give toog much to federal government. i don't want to give them otr funds to raise. >> rich, what do you think? >> i find myself shockingly i

agreement with rick ungar on this. i don't think somebody does not fly should have to pay fees to the t.s.a. but as steve points out, you know, is stuffs abused all the time. >> but, steve, isn't the bottom line the fact that the money is goi --again, you have more money from the private productive sector to the wastefulovernment sector. >> yeah. if we had smaller government peopleouldn't mind to pay a fee to go to the airplane if that's where they thought the money was ing for. there is great support in the '50s for gasoline taxes to build the interstate highway syst because pple thought the money was going for a real purpose. >> morgan, again, it gets to the point -- milton freeman used to talk about this, the more money you take from the private sector the weaker the economy isecause you take it from the only sector creating something. >> not necessarily. let's go back to florida for a second. they raised user fees in the last couple of years. the economy was walloped in the downturn. they have come in with a budget surplus for the state part of the reason is the user fees, despite no income tax

and no property taxes compared to other states like texas. >> florida has a ton of cities that are practically insolvent. look at miami. the state is running budget deficits. they can tax and see and nickel and dimall they want. it doesn't mean you will get more revenues coming in. it's because bureaucrats are wasting the money. >> florida cut a series of business taxes which is a reason why the economy has come back well. >> nice weather. let's not dump all the time on florida. coming up, worried you miss this year's run-up in the stock market? don't. the informers have the stocks ady to go on their own record run. that is comin next. we went out and asked people a simple question:

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your money needs an ally. we're back with the informer scks ready to hit new highs. morgan, hsbc, the bank you like it? >> this is an emerging rket play. really strong earnings and they pay a nice 3.6% dividen >> you like it? >> slippery rockety ride. they're ack around by regulated tier in the united states and in european union. >> okay. you like aerospace, spdr, a collection of aerospace companies. >> yeah. e.t.f ., snp aerospace. defense has great names in it. slim volume right now. rocky ride. but up 29% year to date. >> morgan? >> three words that declared war on the fund. defense spending cuts.

>> we'll see that. is it for "forbes on fox." have a great weekend. ank you for watching. keep it here. the business block continues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." get well, annie. get well soon. the apology after the pledge. did president obama just join this club? >> no one in the white house staff, no one in this administration, presently employed was involved in this very bizarre incident. >> i did not have seal relations with that woman. >> if you like your healthcare plan, you will be able to keep your healthcare pn. period. >> all broken promises, and backtracking. but will this one be the most costly to erica an then talk about rewarding failure. the government awarding millions in two contracts to the same company behind the glitch-ridden obamacare website.